2.2 Euro 5 EGR problem but no error code

[ruaridhmaccallum]

Hello, I'll try to be brief:
2016 2.2 van with higher mileage (178k) has annoying "flat spots" in acceleration, most noticeable in 4th gear when overtaking.
Everything with turbo actuator / manifold pressure / fuel supply etc. checks out OK so far, but:
On Forscan when driving, EGRVPB1 sits at 15.29%, commanded position (EGR_PCT) sits at 0%, and EGR_ERR (difference between commanded and measured) sits at minus 100%. They never move, EXCEPT during the short "clicking" cycle a few seconds after the engine is switched off. During which, commanded goes as high as 80%, measured follows it fairly closely with error coming right down to 0% at times. However measured position never goes below 15.29%, with the resulting high errors for the low values.
Assuming measured value at 0% is fully closed (can anyone confirm this?) then it would seem the EGR is sticking, and as I'm not inclined to move on to the next problem before rectifying the most obvious, I will fit a new one.

I am curious though:-
1) Everything I've read seems to suggest a sticking EGR should throw an error code, but there are none. If the EGR is unplugged the expected codes appear, so I don't think the PCM has been "doctored" to ignore the EGR - is this even possible? (van had tape over the ABS light in the dash when I bought it, so sellers had no scruples)
2) Online sources suggest EGRVPB1 is a "derived" value worked out by the PCM by comparing MAP, boost pressure, turbo actuator position etc. However if this were the case, how could it be reading when the engine is stopped, as in through the post-running cycles mentioned above? I can only guess the "derived" values were on the older pre-euro5 vacuum-actuated EGRs, but can anyone confirm or explain this?
3)Finally, why is the "commanded" value constantly at 0% in all driving conditions? My guess is that the measured 15.29% position at initiation is far enough from the commanded 0% to make the system go into some kind of fail-safe mode, but I don't understand how this could possibly not throw an error or warning.

I suppose there's no point in getting too bogged down in this until I try a new EGR, but if anyone has knowledge or experience in this area a response would be most appreciated, and might also help future readers of this post.

[BHM]

Interesting, please let us know how you get on.

BHM

[sherwoodcycles]

With my 2.2 I've just gone through 'engine malfunction' problems, I believed to be the turbo actuator. Sometimes the van adjuster would jam and make a whine sound. You could only just hear it with your head under the bonnet. The problem came back and I wiggled the loom. This stopped the problem intermittently. I cut open the loom, all the wires were fine. I then discovered it was the plug going into the egr valve. My point if you haven't fallen asleep, is even with the engine NOT running. I've had my egr 'ignored' but it's obviously still connected and related to the servo actuator. I've left it unplugged and it's running fine now. Just thought this might be useful for you to know.

[sherwoodcycles]

And just for clarity....with the engine NOT running, you could wiggle this plug and the turbo actuator buzzed and tried to dance about.

[ruaridhmaccallum]

OK a quick update for anyone who's interested:-

First of all thanks sherwoodcycles, you said " I've had my egr 'ignored' "; any chance you can clarify what you mean by this exactly? You'll understand why from the details below.

I fitted a new EGR today. The old one appeared fully closed which immediately suggested (to me anyway) it might not be the problem. A brief examination suggested the physical valve is not stuck, but I didn't disconnect the actuator so can't be sure at this stage. With the new one fitted I did the reset adaption on Forscan to clear the learned values, then with the engine running went to the outputs: as I suspected, no difference except that the valve position is now 20%. Commanded position still stubbornly 0% with error consequently -100%.

I took the van for a drive and immediately thought it was smoother and less jerky to pull away from a standstill (this has always annoyed me slightly about it and I had considered the throttle pedal might be faulty, but all it's outputs look OK) so maybe the old EGR did have a problem. The flat-spots though while possibly improved, are still there: most noticeable around 2000 rpm in 4th, the acceleration definitely dies off and the "diesel crack" sound becomes noticeably softer and quieter, before seeming more normal again further up the revs. 5th and 6th are motorway speeds at these RPM so it's harder to test on local roads.

All the way through numerous driving tests the commanded position and error completely flat-lined at 0% and -100%, with the actual position at 20% with the odd tiny fluctuation to 19.6%. And for some reason it's not doing the cleaning ("exercise") cycles when it's switched off now, I can only assume conditions to require this haven't been met yet?

Anyway I don't think I can go any further with this until I find out why on earth the commanded position is static at 0%!? I can only think this must have been set in the ECU by someone with proper Ford software or something non-mainstream, but I've no idea if this is even possible. Can anyone enlighten me?

[sherwoodcycles]

Egr ignored - I had it removed from the map by a garage years ago. But it obviously still has some involvement with the turbo solenoid actuator - as it was the fault with the actuator that was giving me the 'engine malfunction error and jamming the turbo actuator.

[ruaridhmaccallum]

Egr ignored - I had it removed from the map by a garage years ago. But it obviously still has some involvement with the turbo solenoid actuator - as it was the fault with the actuator that was giving me the 'engine malfunction error and jamming the turbo actuator.

Thanks - I didn't realise previously that deleting EGR was a "thing", especially on the newer fully-electronic ones. It now makes me wonder if the EGR has anything to do with the flat spots at all, as presumably the van was going well enough when they first did the delete. Although they are quite minor, and in urban use some drivers might not even notice, it's more of a problem on country roads.
I've found out about a guy locally who does re-mapping, deletes etc., I think I'll try and get him to put it back to standard settings and see where I go from there.

[gregd72002]

My EGR on 2.2 also reports 20% when commanded 0. This seems to be PID or Forscan issue. Not EGR issue.

Unplug MAF sensor and go for a spin. Check if flat spot is gone. Unplugging MAF will make the van to disable EGR. But will also show error code which you will need to clean once you plug MAF back.

[ruaridhmaccallum]

My EGR on 2.2 also reports 20% when commanded 0. This seems to be PID or Forscan issue. Not EGR issue.

Unplug MAF sensor and go for a spin. Check if flat spot is gone. Unplugging MAF will make the van to disable EGR. But will also show error code which you will need to clean once you plug MAF back.

Many thanks, I'll try that. Any chance you can clarify: are you actually talking about EGRVPB1 being 20%? There is another field just called (I think) EGRVP which this engine almost definitely doesn't use, it sits static at 20% the whole time, even on my old valve when EGRVPB1 was reading 15.29%. Also, I'm guessing the commanded value on yours does actually change when driving?

I'll definitely try tip about MAF

[gregd72002]

So, unsure about the EGRVPB1. I normally use EGRP. This one normally is 20% or above. It goes to 0 only when engine's off.

Let us know if unplugging MAF improves anything.

[ruaridhmaccallum]

OK, so it turns out unplugging the MAF was a most useful tip, thank you. I'll not be 100% sure until I fit a new one, but:-

First of all, I had thought I noticed that when leaving for work early in the morning, especially on frosty days, that the flat spots weren't so bad, but that they came back once up to normal temperature. On this version it seems that the MAF is combined with the intake air / outside temperature sensor (although there may be another after the turbo for charge air temp.)

When I went to disconnect it I noticed it looks suspiciously like one of the very cheap copy ones from ebay (mostly £29 but as low as £16 when a proper one is about £75). Disconnecting it causes the traction control light to come on (with the hill start assist not available warning chime), and the outside temperature on the dash to read -18, but, as suggested the flat spots seem to be gone. It's hard to be absolutely certain, but it definitely seems to pull cleanly from below 2000rpm right through, in 3rd 4th and 5th. You would be very hard pressed to say there's anything wrong with it like that. Re-connecting the sensor makes the TC light go away without clearing the error on Forscan, but the outside temp still read -18, and this couldn't be fixed with Forscan even by running the MAF Adaption (to reset the learned values in the PCM). However after 5 or 6 miles driving it did come back to normal.

So I'm now hopeful that a new proper brand name MAF sensor will fix the problem. It will be interesting to see if it also causes the EGR to be sent commands greater than 0%, or if it has indeed had an EGR delete done previously

[sherwoodcycles]

I would imagine (but I may be wrong) if the egr is not deleted, unplugging it will result in some warning light eventually if driven about. Mine is always unplugged (now) abd I don't get any warnings, but it did cause the beeping/ buzzing thing which also seemed to screw up the turbo actuator. Is there anyone here that could unplug theirs (and hasn't had it deleted) just to see if it throws a light, yo help you ?

[ruaridhmaccallum]

Thanks for that. Good point, in fact I did try running it unplugged when going through the diagnosis prior to ordering the new EGR, and it did indeed bring the engine management light on after a couple of minutes idling in the workshop; not even necessary to take it for a drive. The PID was something like "open circuit EGR valve bank 1" or suchlike. As you say, this could indicate a delete has not been carried out in the past. Also, it seems unlikely that the EGR would go through the post-shutdown "clearing" cycles if it had been deleted.

But without knowing exactly how the delete is carried out, it's impossible to say. Perhaps the delete (in my case) has left the EGR fully visible to the PCM (ECU) but has just set the commanded value permanently at 0%? That certainly appears to be the behaviour at the moment. My next steps are to fit the new MAF sensor, let it settle in and see if the flat spots are cured. If they are I may not need to do any more, but even so I'll be inclined to let Forscan make a graph of EGR commanded value over a longer drive and see if the EGR is ever commanded to open.

Luckily the van is far from unusable through all this, the problem is fairly minor really but I like trying to get everything working correctly especially with these modern systems

[sherwoodcycles]

I know what you mean wanting it to be functioning. My egr is deleted, but it still does that cleaning cycle that loot described. The scraping sound one. I added a black plate today - I'm interested to know if this has any effect (suspecting it may be letting exhaust fumes past). I'll update one I know.

[gregd72002]

Do you still have DPF? Disconnecting MAF, causes EGR to be permanently closed and this means that any excessive back pressure is not recirculated into intake. It might be as well MAF problem or DPF problem or EGR problem. These would be the 3 main causes in here.