Not Turning Over Dead At Key 2008 Mk7 2.4 140 RWD SWB

[Glyn0]

Hi All

Sorry this is a long one I have had my van for two months and it started every time with out fail although it did sound sluggish when it turned over but this was not a priority, I went to start the van and when I turned the key the instrument panel lights came on and there was nothing dead at the key did not even try I could hear a relay clicking that I thought was under the drivers seat. Next day I tried again and this time instrument panel lights came on and dead at the key not even trying to turn over but there was no relay clicking now. I tested the voltage of both batteries and they were 12.3v starting battery and 12.5 v on the other one so as I previously mentioned it would sound sluggish I brought a new starter motor, Now this is where things start to take a turn for the worst. I have a bad back at the moment so I got my Adult Son to help me he took the old starter motor off and when installing the new one to my surprise he asked me where the wires go, after the air had been turned blue I asked him how many wires are there and he said three and he thought there was two on the bigger stud and one on the smaller stud so I thought it must be positive from battery and then positive to alternator on the large stud and the switch wire on the smaller stud which he confirmed that the switch wire would only fit the smaller stud so this is how he put it back together.When he finished I tried starting it and it was just the same all dash lights on but dead at the key I was stumped so I took the batteries off and charged them both and brought a Top Don Battery tester which said both batteries are good.After I had charged the batteries when I turned the key I could hear what i think was the flywheel very slowly turning and when the battery lost a bit of charge a click from the solenoid
Now it gets even worst I reached out to a friend for help and he came around and said he thought it would be a bad earth so he brought with him an insulated earth wire which he connected to the battery and to the earthing point under the drivers seat and this made no difference, He then was looking down on the engine bay and started laughing there loose next to the starter Motor was a thick earth lead so we deducted that my lad had mad a mistake I went to disconnect the battery and just as I began to remove the terminal I was covered in sparks and the earth cable that we had temp installed was melting the insulation, I disconnected the battery as quick as possible and the short on the wiring although it felt like for ever was probably only a few seconds. My other mate had decided when we went to disconnect the battery that he would touch the loose wire on the large stud of the starter motor needless to say he was shouted at for a good few minutes by both of us, We removed the starter motor and he put the earth wire onto one of the bolts on the gear box we removed the temp earth strap and did a visual check on the wiring and no damage can be seen so we reconnected the battery and now when I turn the key there are no instrument lights just the immobiliser light and it is still dead when you turn the key. I have checked all the fuses in both fuse boxes under the dashboard and the engine bay fuse box and also the fuse box under the drivers seat all the relays have been removed visually checked and placed back and I have taken the batteries to Halfords and had them both tested I have also brought an ignition switch from Amazon and changed that. I have also cleaned the earth points behind both head lights and the one under the drivers seat.

Now I have two questions which are...

1. is the wiring for the starter motor now correct so on large stud positive from battery and then the wire to the alternator and the switch wire to the small stud and the earth lead on one of the two bolts which bolts the starter motor in place?

2. And can any one please advise me where to check next as I am really lost now and have no idea where to start

[TheCake]

iirc there are earth on block and 2 red cables on the same post, switched on small post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA94ni3JfHs
this video should help

lets hope you've not fried the pcm

have you checked the jumbo fuses by the battery?

[knobby1]

My guess would be the ignition switch as the culprit all along if the batteries are good.

You'll need to check all fuses as "The Cake" has mentioned....you've possibly/likely fried a couple....and hope to God you haven't fried the PCM and/or BCM.

Lord Knobrot

[tranmx2]

So the battery was connected directly to earth - much the same as from B+ to B-.
Look for plasic things on the battery earths at the battery clamps. If there are plastic things there it has a BMS which is likely to have registered the high amp flow. If there is a BMS it can be reprogramed.

sens amp bat on vn txt.png

Starter motor wires txt.png

Simple dwg bat sol chassis.png

[Glyn0]

iirc there are earth on block and 2 red cables on the same post, switched on small post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA94ni3JfHs
this video should help

lets hope you've not fried the pcm

have you checked the jumbo fuses by the battery?

I have checked all of the jumbo fuses and they are all ok, I will double check the Starter Motor Wiring tomorrow.

Thanks for your help

[Glyn0]

My guess would be the ignition switch as the culprit all along if the batteries are good.

You'll need to check all fuses as "The Cake" has mentioned....you've possibly/likely fried a couple....and hope to God you haven't fried the PCM and/or BCM.

Lord Knobrot

Unfortunately all the fuses are good it turns out the ignition switch might not have been too old as when we removed the glovebox we found a ford genuine part box with an old ignition switch inside but I have changed the one that was fitted with a new one from Amazon.

Thanks

Glyn

[Glyn0]

IMG_0623 Small.jpeg

So the battery was connected directly to earth - much the same as from B+ to B-.
Look for plasic things on the battery earths at the battery clamps. If there are plastic things there it has a BMS which is likely to have registered the high amp flow. If there is a BMS it can be reprogramed.

sens amp bat on vn txt.png

Starter motor wires txt.png

Simple dwg bat sol chassis.png

Hi I have just been out and checked and unfortunately I do not have the BMS that you have mentioned, I took a picture below thanks for your help...

download/file.php?mode=view&id=47012

[Glyn0]

Right today I have noticed a relay which clicks under the drivers seat when the key is in position 2,i am pretty sure this used to happen when it ran but I am listing everything so nothing is missed I have uploaded a picture of the relay.

Relay under driver seat.jpeg

Relay under driver seat.jpeg

I have also noticed that when the key is in position 2 that I get a clicking relay noise from inside the fuse panel which is behind the one under the glovebox, it clicks once every second for 11 seconds. I hadn't noticed this before when the van was running but maybe when it is all put away and the engine noise masks it? I have included a pic of the label on the panel

Label on Fuse Panel.jpeg

Also the red flashing light on the instrument panel I am presuming is for the immobiliser, I sat in the car and got someone to lock it and walk away and then come back a few min later unlock the van and try to start it but I noticed that no matter what is going on there is no change in the red flashing light it just comes on every 5 seconds and then goes off, could there be an issue with the immobiliser

Thanks

Glyn

[Glyn0]

Hi Does anyone have any wiring diagrams that would assist me in trying to trace the problem with the Ignition system?

Thanks

Glyn

[Altransit]

Right today I have noticed a relay which clicks under the drivers seat when the key is in position 2,i am pretty sure this used to happen when it ran but I am listing everything so nothing is missed I have uploaded a picture of the relay.

That relay will close to connect both batteries when you switch on the ignition and start, and stay connected whilst the engine is running, so both batteries will charge simultaneously. It will disconnect after a short time if you don't start the engine, and immediately when you switch off the engine. This protects the starter battery from accidental discharge.

Also the red flashing light on the instrument panel I am presuming is for the immobiliser, I sat in the car and got someone to lock it and walk away and then come back a few min later unlock the van and try to start it but I noticed that no matter what is going on there is no change in the red flashing light it just comes on every 5 seconds and then goes off, could there be an issue with the immobiliser

The red LED should flash slowly when the van is switched off to show that it's active. If you switch on with the correct key, the light will go solid red and then go out, to show that the immobiliser is now inactive, and the engine should run.
If you use an uncoded or mismatched key, the LED will flash quickly to show that it's immobilising the starter, and the engine won't run.
If the engine won't run but the red LED light has gone out, then the immobiliser isn't causing the problem.

[Glyn0]

Thanks my immobiliser is flashing constant every 5 seconds no matter what I do so I have brought an immobiliser transceiver and I am going to try swapping that over later to Se if it makes any difference

[Glyn0]

Thanks my immobiliser is flashing constant every 5 seconds no matter what I do so I have brought an immobiliser transceiver and I am going to try swapping that over later to Se if it makes any difference

[Glyn0]

Right I have tried the immobiliser transducer and it made no differance so now the last thing is the ECU/PCM. I need to send one off to be tested am I correct in thinking that the PCM is on the diesel pump and this is also the immobiliser and the ECU is on RHS engine bay next to fuse panel? also would anyone know which one my fault is likely to be in I am thinking the PCM on the fuel pump.

Any help or advise would be greatly appreciated as I am lost with it now.

Thanks

glyn

[knobby1]

am I correct in thinking that the PCM is on the diesel pump and this is also the immobiliser and the ECU is on RHS engine bay next to fuse panel? also would anyone know which one my fault is likely to be in I am thinking the PCM on the fuel pump.

Any help or advise would be greatly appreciated as I am lost with it now.

Thanks

glyn

No, on the Mk7's the PCM lives on the left inner wing near the coolant reservoir. They don't have an ECU as such. The pump is just a pump, it doesn't need timing, nor does it have any major electronics on it. I'd be checking "all" the earths, especially the ones under/near the PCM on the left inner wing, they're known to corrode badly and cause grief. Also check the main earth on the floor by the driver's seat and on the starter mount to chassis.

Lord Knobrot

[Glyn0]

am I correct in thinking that the PCM is on the diesel pump and this is also the immobiliser and the ECU is on RHS engine bay next to fuse panel? also would anyone know which one my fault is likely to be in I am thinking the PCM on the fuel pump.

Any help or advise would be greatly appreciated as I am lost with it now.

Thanks

glyn

No, on the Mk7's the PCM lives on the left inner wing near the coolant reservoir. They don't have an ECU as such. The pump is just a pump, it doesn't need timing, nor does it have any major electronics on it. I'd be checking "all" the earths, especially the ones under/near the PCM on the left inner wing, they're known to corrode badly and cause grief. Also check the main earth on the floor by the driver's seat and on the starter mount to chassis.

Lord Knobrot

Thanks mate I have already removed and cleaned both the earths on the inner wings behind both headlights and the earth at the bottom of the drivers seat and both sides of the earth wire too the starter motor, Checked all the fuses and relays changed the starter motor for a new one fitted a new ignition switch and an immobiliser transceiver. Unfortunately the only thing I can think of now is the PCM/ECU to be fried due to the short that had occurred and I was a bit confused because I have read people writing about a PCM on the diesel pump. But now I know its just the one you mentioned I just need to find someone to test/fix it for me.

Thanks

Glyn