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Help understanding forscan graphs

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Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby ollyboly » Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:56 pm

Hi all,

I've had some smoke issues with my mk7 transit. Originally advised it was EGR so got that changed, but didn't fix it. I don't want to spend any more money replacing things that aren't the cause so want to be certain what i'm replacing will fix the issue. I bought a cheap ELM adapter and got forscan runnning in a virtual machine on my laptop which let me do the learns - but that didn't seem to affect the issue.
I emailed vantuner who suggested a new PRV / SCV and software update after getting my injectors professionally tested to see if they're at fault. I'm wondering if there's any self diagnostics i can do to confirm whether the PRV / SCV is at fault to avoid me having to test my injectors as doing that is quite expensive.

I loaded up forscan and after reading a few forum posts on here did the 2nd gear acceleration test with the graphs running - roll along in 2nd gear at idle, when speed settled - floor the accelerator. I only went up to about 30mph as its a residential area but can repeat the test if i need to get to the rev limiter.

Anyway i've got these graphs that i only half understand, but don't understand the consequences of the numbers if that makes sense.
2gearfullthrottle1.png


Looks to me like the fuel rail pressure peaks at 180,000 kPa (1800 bar / 26,000 psi) and doesn't follow the desired pressure. Before flooring it, it was + 25,000kPa compared to desired. Mid test it was 35,000 kPa below desired and just before lifting off it was 10,000kPa above desired. Does this support the PRV / SCV replacement or could this still be injectors?

Another thing i noticed is the mass air flow is only 1/3rd of what is demanded. Which could be an issue if its over fuelling and not getting enough air. Turbo issue? I did check for any splits in the hoses but couldn't find anything...

All help much appreciated
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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby v8dave » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:36 pm

Black smoke ?
That's either too much fuel or not enough air.
How old is the air filter ? and is it dry ?

I've not tried doing the learns with forscan as I have ids, but if the learns complete then there is probably not much wrong with the prv and scv.

Plot less curves, too much data gets distracting, the egr is working so ignore that.
Change the fuel pressure data to read in MPa or bar, having it in kPa is ok but remember air pressure is 100kPa so th enumbers can be big without being significant.
Repeat the data collection run four or five times.
Fuel rail pressure will limit to about 500bar if the prv has failed.
If the fuel rail pressure desired and actual do not change together the the scv is not good, but don't worry if the desired and actual values are not the same as long as the curves are a similar shape.
As you got a rail pressure barely above desired at throttle lift off I think your valves are ok.

If you want to check the injectors then do a leakoff test of the injectors, this is done on the van so cheap.
mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby ollyboly » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:09 pm

Yeah black smoke
Air filter is brand new, literally just done a service a couple weeks ago.

Interesting, yeah the learns completed first time without any issues.

I agree too much data, i'll do a few more runs tomorrow with your recommendations

I also ordered a leak off test kit and will do that when it arrives.

Thanks for your help, no doubt i'll be back tomorrow!
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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby daraioj » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:01 pm

Would it help to check the intake manifold pressure too? If I'm not understanding the graphs wrongly it's getting less than a third of amount of air it's expecting, right?
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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby ollyboly » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:20 pm

Yeah it looks that way.
I did look into the MAF and MAP sensors and decided to check the MAP sensor as they get quite clogged with soot from the exhaust gasses apparently.
For sure, this was the case - its a shame i didn't do a before and after cleaning measurement to see if cleaning it made any difference but my god there was a lot of crap.
IMG_0915.jpg


I then did two rounds of testing and they came up pretty similar so here's the results:
Graphs are:
- Accelerator pedal position
- Fuel rail pressure
- Fuel rail pressure desired
- MAF
- MAF demand
- MAP
round2test1.png


Still smoking though...

Waiting on leak off test delivery.
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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby daraioj » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:49 am

Boost seems ok. I bet you'd get a smoother FRP with a new SCV but don't think that's the problem anyway. You're still not getting enough air. Unless the MAF is not working properly.
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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby ollyboly » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:29 am

Can some one explain, if the MAF is faulty and gives lower readings that actual air flow, then why doesn't the ECU compensate and inject less fuel? It seems to me the ECU has all the readings it needs not to inject too much fuel (maf and map).

Causes for not enough air...
- boost leak - I have checked but i will check again, really hard to insect the turbo pipes properly.
- bad turbo - I did notice a bit of oil on the cold side which concerned me but i dismissed it as i can still feel when the turbo kicks in (you can see on the graphs too). Video here if anyone cares https://photos.app.goo.gl/YFcih2i3PF1bYgcv5

Anything else i'm sure i've missed?

Did a quick google and found this: http://www.uniteddiesel.co.uk/diesel-engine-problems
Lots of very expensive sounding problems... "Injector blow–by seat leaking" caught my eye as when i took the air box off there was alot (i mean alot) of black tar around the injectors, even on the fuel rail pipes - Below pic is after i cleaned most of it off with a toothbrush
IMG_0849.jpg
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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby daraioj » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:27 pm

I think your turbo is fine. That doesn't seem like a lot of oil to me. It looks normal. Plus you're getting between 0.7 and 1 bar of boost.

I thought about that too. If the MAF reading is low why isn't it injecting less fuel? And I'm guessing the ECU has a range of expected values beyond which it won't be able to compensate anymore.

Regarding the tar. You'll have to replace the copper washers that seal the injectors against the cylinder head. It's relatively simple. If you do a quick search you'll find quite a bit of info but I don't think that's related to the lack of air or low MAF reading.
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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby ollyboly » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:52 pm

I got some copper washers and seals for the injectors - still waiting on the leak off test...

Quick question, given i'm going to have the injectors out, do i need to replace the high pressure fuel lines?
They're rusty as anything on one side, and oily on the other.

Anything else i need to replace?
I think i read something on here about replacing the bolts too? Can't find it now though...
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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby daraioj » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:24 pm

I don't think I would replace them, unless they're in really bad shape. You can replace them afterwards anyway (without removing the injectors I mean)

Yes you will need new bolts. They stretch as you tighten them and can snap if reused.

Ford upgraded the clamps too for some slightly thicker ones. They've got a part number stamped on them. Should be 6C1Q-9L535-AC for the old ones and 6C1Q-9L535-AD for the new ones. They're a tenner each at Ford.

This might come handy:

https://goo.gl/3NGRgK

You'll need a torque wrench, or some serious courage.

Torque:
Fuel injector clamp bolt
Stage 1: 6 Nm
Stage 2: 180°

Edit:
Remember the injectors are coded so put them back the way you removed them.
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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby andz327 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:08 am

And replace the leakoff pipe seals , use Genuine Ford seals they're about £5 and saves any fuel/air leaks(after market seals are usually p!sh fitting)

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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby andz327 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:19 am

Just an after thought .... If you are getting a bit of blow by the compression seals it will push the gasses/ Fumes right into your air intake pipe which maybe fookin with your maf sensor although it does enter the pipe after the sensor but worth doing in any case

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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby ollyboly » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:28 pm

So the leak off test came today and i tried it out.
No instructions so i was flying blind a bit. All of the adapters seemed super loose, even the denso specific one. I tried to do the test but the adapters kept popping off so i only managed about 5 seconds of testing before fuel starting peeing from the 2nd injector and i turned the engine off.

The kit is a bag of rubbish. I should've taken notice of the reviews on amazon / ebay. Not worth the £22.

In the 5 seconds the test was running, fuel was moving very speedily. I estimate the bottles would have been full in about 1 - 2 minutes of idle. Looks like my injectors are ruined.

What the best option - buy new... buy reconditioned ... or scrap yard? I'll need some new high pressure fuel pipes too as they're looking rusty and pitted which is making me nervous.
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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby knobby1 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:11 pm

Ford specify 25-40ml per injector at idle over a 4 minute period.

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Re: Help understanding forscan graphs

Postby daraioj » Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:16 am

As knobby said.

And don't forget to cap the return lines before you start the engine so you don't get air in the system.

New or reconditioned? In my opinion the problem is that buying a second hand injector is a gamble. If it's in bad shape it could cause serious damage. And if you buy them from somewhere reputable, they're not a lot cheaper than a new one.

But do the leak-off test before worrying about it :)
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