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MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a bit

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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby v8dave » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:18 pm

The broken wire looks like the glow plug feed.
Modern diesel engines will start without the glow plugs as they have adequate compression, BUT the ecu might do odd things as it will have sensed that the glow plug power is not normal.

The injector seals into the engine at two locations.
The pressure seal to contain combustion is at the tip, it's a copper coloured washer and new ones should always be fitted. My experience of aftermarket ones is that they are narrower than genuine ford ones, there is a significant cost difference. The surface in the cylinder head that the washer sits one must be clean, flat and accurately perpendicular to the injector axis to get proper sealing.
The secondary seal is the one you can see in the rocker cover, it keeps dirt out of the engine and the oil in. If oil is obviously leaking around them then it is likely that the pressure seal at the tip of the injector is not secure, this allows combustion gases to blow oil up against the oil seal and it leaks through because the seal can't cope with the pressure.

The injector leak back or leak off test is about leakage inside the injector.
Seems to me a failing pump should result in low fuel pressure.
If the suction control valve on the pump fails, it will fail open and you get too much fuel pressure.

Blue/white smoke at initial start could indicate several things,
- poor compression
- too much fuel
- cylinder(s) too cold

If the glow plugs are intact but not working then you'd get the too cold problem but they will warm up very quickly, like in 30 seconds at most.

The tips of the glow plugs can get burnt off, that would drop the compression a bit and might also give rise to a compression leak.

Once the engine is warm then blue/white smoke is engine oil and usually comes from the turbo, either compressor or turbine side. A slight haze is usually the warning that your about to produce a smoke screen big enough to hide the red army.

Once the engine is warmed up black smoke is from poor combustion due to soot caused by,
- too much fuel
- poor fuel distribution
- poor fuel droplet size
- poor compression

When I say too much fuel I mean for the amount of oxygen in the intake charge, that can be too low it the egr is recycling too much inert exhaust into the intake. This exhaust gas is actually used to suppress combustion cylinder temperatures and reduce the production of oxides of nitrogen. But it the engine management does not match the egr and injection correctly you can get incomplete combustion.

Poor fuel distribution would be caused by damaged injector nozzles

Poor fuel droplet size will be droplets that are too big, they would occur if the injector nozzles are too big or worn or if the fuel pressure is too low.

For your ecu calibration, the ford download site let me have BZ without giving any warnings about it being old - but that doesn't mean anything in my view.
Somebody with ids and an up to date database can do the check for a newer version.
mk7 08reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD
mk6 X reg 2.4 T350 LWB MHR RWD - scrapped
mk4 J reg 2.5 L300 LWB MHR RWD - sold on

Notice a trend there ? not too big and not too small
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:41 pm

v8dave wrote:The broken wire looks like the glow plug feed.
Modern diesel engines will start without the glow plugs as they have adequate compression, BUT the ecu might do odd things as it will have sensed that the glow plug power is not normal.

The injector seals into the engine at two locations.
The pressure seal to contain combustion is at the tip, it's a copper coloured washer and new ones should always be fitted. My experience of aftermarket ones is that they are narrower than genuine ford ones, there is a significant cost difference. The surface in the cylinder head that the washer sits one must be clean, flat and accurately perpendicular to the injector axis to get proper sealing.
The secondary seal is the one you can see in the rocker cover, it keeps dirt out of the engine and the oil in. If oil is obviously leaking around them then it is likely that the pressure seal at the tip of the injector is not secure, this allows combustion gases to blow oil up against the oil seal and it leaks through because the seal can't cope with the pressure.

The injector leak back or leak off test is about leakage inside the injector.
Seems to me a failing pump should result in low fuel pressure.
If the suction control valve on the pump fails, it will fail open and you get too much fuel pressure.

Blue/white smoke at initial start could indicate several things,
- poor compression
- too much fuel
- cylinder(s) too cold

If the glow plugs are intact but not working then you'd get the too cold problem but they will warm up very quickly, like in 30 seconds at most.

The tips of the glow plugs can get burnt off, that would drop the compression a bit and might also give rise to a compression leak.

Once the engine is warm then blue/white smoke is engine oil and usually comes from the turbo, either compressor or turbine side. A slight haze is usually the warning that your about to produce a smoke screen big enough to hide the red army.

Once the engine is warmed up black smoke is from poor combustion due to soot caused by,
- too much fuel
- poor fuel distribution
- poor fuel droplet size
- poor compression

When I say too much fuel I mean for the amount of oxygen in the intake charge, that can be too low it the egr is recycling too much inert exhaust into the intake. This exhaust gas is actually used to suppress combustion cylinder temperatures and reduce the production of oxides of nitrogen. But it the engine management does not match the egr and injection correctly you can get incomplete combustion.

Poor fuel distribution would be caused by damaged injector nozzles

Poor fuel droplet size will be droplets that are too big, they would occur if the injector nozzles are too big or worn or if the fuel pressure is too low.

For your ecu calibration, the ford download site let me have BZ without giving any warnings about it being old - but that doesn't mean anything in my view.
Somebody with ids and an up to date database can do the check for a newer version.


THANKS v much for your effort explaining that.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby Bluevanman! » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:01 am

Don't suppose you have any more news On your van? Im going to Look at the same connection on mine at the weekend.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:45 pm

Bluevanman! wrote:Don't suppose you have any more news On your van? Im going to Look at the same connection on mine at the weekend.


Nope. Wish i did. Its with Ford.!! i gave in. i think they are having a job solving it, i will update when i hear.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby Bluevanman! » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:58 pm

Update on mine. So haven't used it for 2 weeks. Went to start it, noting just turns over. So went and grabbed the IDS laptop and VCM. Plugged it in. Only 2 DTC's. Bothe tue P1293,1294. So clears them. Restarted the engine. Fired up first turn. WTF.
I'm now thinking this is electrical. Again it will Only do this if left over a week. Will try it again next week and see what it dose.
Anyone go any suggestions?? Try checking all the earths? Worth a look I suppose.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:23 pm

UPdate on mine.

Its working, and been OK and going good for just under a week. It starts first time and does not conk out just after starting.
So, it went to Ford, they couldn't find much wrong so they did an Update (or so they said), they wiped all error codes, (including those x2 P1293 and P1294) and they did the injectors and pump learn again. (i have no idea if this really solved it or the fact the van has been and is being driven more and the fault not occurring because of that, i suppose i should let it sit for a few days and see but im enjoying driving so wont just yet. The exact words on Fords invoice stated 'tech carried out pump learning and software update and advised regular driving to keep systems operating correctly' Fair enough as the van did fail after being left for a week here and there and before xmas was left for 2 weeks and then really didn't want to go. Not entirely sure i really needed to waste a huge amount of £s on injectors to be honest or if i just needed to give it a good ride to clear out 2weeks of sitting still. Bit annoyed really that it needs driving to keep it going because i dont really want to spend 20quid a day and waste 2hrs a day driving in circles just so it starts the next morning. Ford charged me 100 euro, which i though worth it, considering local small garages could only scratch heads and say maybe try fuel pump at x cost. Being Informed is invaluable.

I still need to fix the glow plug harness connection, just bodged for moment till i work out what connector to get.

Fingers crossed it lasts, will see, if you dont see an update here - im driving!.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:31 pm

Bluevanman! wrote:Update on mine. So haven't used it for 2 weeks. Went to start it, noting just turns over. So went and grabbed the IDS laptop and VCM. Plugged it in. Only 2 DTC's. Bothe tue P1293,1294. So clears them. Restarted the engine. Fired up first turn. WTF.
I'm now thinking this is electrical. Again it will Only do this if left over a week. Will try it again next week and see what it dose.
Anyone go any suggestions?? Try checking all the earths? Worth a look I suppose.



I had both those codes P1293 and P1294, i couldn't clear them with my £10 elm. I do think ford did something for me with their PCM update and reset those codes (they did clear and they not come back yet and they never did anything mechanical) and pump learn. Id suggest once you get it started, try driving it every day for an hour round in circles if you have to. I do wonder like mine that those codes stuff it up and wont let it start once they get control of the system. If driving daily doesnt do it, get it done and it seems to work. I dont want to not drive t now though to revert to same problem so im going follow this and await your report from not driving once youve got it sorted.! :lol:
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:35 pm

one other thing mine does do now, more than before because it did it a little, is it HUNTS, when the clutch it pressed in, while stationary and Idling. totaly wierd, but not failing from it, it does keep me from riding the clutch though so prob good. think i read maybe from the Anti Stall effect.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby Bluevanman! » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:24 pm

Been having the same weird thing happening to mine.

While its still warming up, Pop the clutch in the engine revs a little them sometimes hunts. Only dose it when its cold.

I replaced all the fuel Supply and return lines from the filter, leak off pipes everything. and "So Far" its been Ok.
But I have been using the van more than I usually do. IE 4 days was the longest it stood. Will see this weekend. Not driven it since last Sunday so will see if it will go next sat.

The Same codes you have seem to stop mine from going as well.
I have IDS so clearing them I noticed it will start and run as normal.
Hope i get to the bottom of this.

Geuss i will have to take the van out more often as well haha
MK 5 TD Transit 80 SWB Custom with Air Con. Gone, Lost to fire.
MK 7 110 FWD MWB Blue Camper conversion.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby redbox4wheels » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:26 am

Bluevanman! wrote:Been having the same weird thing happening to mine.

While its still warming up, Pop the clutch in the engine revs a little them sometimes hunts. Only dose it when its cold.

I replaced all the fuel Supply and return lines from the filter, leak off pipes everything. and "So Far" its been Ok.
But I have been using the van more than I usually do. IE 4 days was the longest it stood. Will see this weekend. Not driven it since last Sunday so will see if it will go next sat.

The Same codes you have seem to stop mine from going as well.
I have IDS so clearing them I noticed it will start and run as normal.
Hope i get to the bottom of this.

Geuss i will have to take the van out more often as well haha



thats cool hope thats worked for you, i shall keep the full fuel lines changes in mind if mine returns,i daren't not drive it for a few days at the moment esp as its getting cold weather coming up. 4 days standing still would previously have been enough to give mine grief trying to start. ill update thread when mines had 4+days standing still.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby Bluevanman! » Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:27 pm

So a follow up to this old thread.
Van was left a week and did the same old thing. Started on the button as it always dose. Ran for about 30 ish seconds just as I accelerated to pull away shudders and shut off.
Learned if I try and start it straight away it just won't go, so key out. Count 2 minutes. Start bang off we go with no further problems.
Now it was very empty said 20 miles, don't normally leaf it go that low but was a late gig I was returning from and just wanted my bed haha.
So next thing is to fill it and leave it a week and see.
Only happens when it gets cold. Never dose it in the summer.
WEIRD.
MK 5 TD Transit 80 SWB Custom with Air Con. Gone, Lost to fire.
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Mk 7 110 FWD MWB Dark Grey Limited van.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby NCTURB » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:15 am

Hi, I've been having the same problems and have change sensors, metering valve, pressure regulator, checked the wiring and connectors, its been driving me crazy for the last few weeks gradually getting worse, so I've been trying to work out wtf it was , then yesterday morning, Hey Presto !
I noticed the key in the ignition barrel coming back on itself slightly and then the engine would cut out, it was just a dicky switch after all, the barrel was fine and no need for anything new under the bonnet at all, I changed the switch over from another van I have and it's sorted.
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby mickmickmick » Sat Jan 15, 2022 6:17 pm

Hi I have the same issue, starts then cuts out then refuses to start for 4 or 5 tries , then runs fine till the next morning, i changed furl filter but still same, obd reading says
P1 293:00-28 injector high side open - bank 1.
P1 294:00-28 injector high side open - bank 2.
anyone know what this could me thanks
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Re: MK7 - Starts Fine, Cuts Out, then Wont Start Again for a

Postby knobby1 » Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:47 am

mickmickmick wrote:Hi I have the same issue, starts then cuts out then refuses to start for 4 or 5 tries , then runs fine till the next morning, i changed furl filter but still same, obd reading says
P1 293:00-28 injector high side open - bank 1.
P1 294:00-28 injector high side open - bank 2.
anyone know what this could me thanks


Thread is 4 years old...you might be better off starting a new thread with your issue.

Your fault codes indicate a possible wiring fault with your injectors, check the looms/connectors for poorly connections or breaks.

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