Getting rid of the gear lever in the middle of the floor -

[Rolo]

This may apply only to Australian Mark 1s with Ford six cylinder engines but I was told by somebody who I believe knows what he's talking about that if you want to get rid of the 5 speed gear lever in the middle of the floor one solution is to fit a cable operated five speed gearbox out of a Toyota panel van (which also happens to be a fraction of the cost of a Ford T5) using a conversion plate to couple it to the Ford 250 c.i. engine.

The Toyota gearbox seems to have a lower first gear but that can only be an improvement when pushing three tons up a very slow hill.

Does anybody know anything about this?

The length of the cable for the gear lever may or may not have to be changed depending on where you want to mount it.

On the dashboard right next to the steering wheel seems ok with me.

[Sundowner]

I cant see any 4cyl toyota tarago gear box that would be strong enough to haul 3 tons and cope with the 250 torque beacuse theres none that i know of

even the early 6cyl supra boxes have a hard time behind a 250
if the sticks giving you that much greif make up a quick release system and take it off when your parked

[FredTransit]

Going auto might be an option, it was when the Mk1 was new.

[Rolo]

I cant see any 4cyl toyota tarago gear box that would be strong enough to haul 3 tons and cope with the 250 torque

Funny you should mention that because that's exactly the warnings I heard when I asked about mounting a T5 and many mentioned that the gearbox out of a Toyota Celica would have been much better.

A Toyota HiAce is rated for 2.8 ton and I know a plumber in the street who normally loads a lot more than that on it and on holidays he pulls a 20' caravan.

[Rolo]

Going auto might be an option,

Only an option if I ever lose the use of one of my legs.

Automatics are fantastic except that they:

cost more to buy;

cost more to maintain;

cost more to repair;

have a much more limited life than a manual;

cost more on fuel;

cut down the top speed;

rob power from the engine;

make engines overheat in hot weather;

and to top it all they are a danger to their users and everybody else around them because far too drivers have been led to believe that "Automatic gearbox" means that they will actually change gears properly under all possible situations, which is why you see so many accidents "due to overheated brakes" in automatic vehicles (shouldn't they say; "due to automatic transmission"?), particularly in mountain roads.

Brakes are for emergencies or for making minor speed adjustments IN ORDER to go down a gear and get the ENGINE to hold your speed down when going down a hill.

If you put your foot on the brake pedal for any longer than 4 seconds reconsider why you are doing so.


Does it sound as if I could ever consider that option?

[Sundowner]

I cant see any 4cyl toyota tarago gear box that would be strong enough to haul 3 tons and cope with the 250 torque

Funny you should mention that because that's exactly the warnings I heard when I asked about mounting a T5 and many mentioned that the gearbox out of a Toyota Celica would have been much better.

A Toyota HiAce is rated for 2.8 ton and I know a plumber in the street who normally loads a lot more than that on it and on holidays he pulls a 20' caravan.

Hiace rated at 2.8 ton really??? the new ones are! we have 3 2003 hiace sbv lwb vans and they are rated at 2.8 ton gross they have a 2.7l engine and a 5 speed but its not cable shifted and a gearbox will cost you your soul

Having personal experience with both gearboxes in performanse cars all i can say is that the T5 craps all over a celica box

I had a torana (1175kg) with a warm 202 i had an aussie 4 speed in it first and it lasted about 4 months , i got the need for 5 gears and went with a reco steel case celica box form mal wood it didnt even last a month
then i got a T5 from a 5.0l commodore and it lasted for the duration of ownership

If you want to do it go for it but when it craps it self just remember
I TOLD YA SO

[24vtranny]

i have a mk1 l.w.b. 4.1. auto and i love it.

[Rolo]

i have a mk1 l.w.b. 4.1. auto and i love it.

Many people do, especially women and the elderly, but that doesn't answer any of the points I mentioned against them.

[Sundowner]

Going auto might be an option,

Automatics are fantastic except that they:

cost more to buy; Compared to what?

a C4 is not a pricey as a t5

cost more to maintain;

C4 filter change every 50000km costs $14 for the filter and about $30 for the fluid, an LE97 4 speed from an ef el falc never requires a fluid change and appart from lubricating the shift linkage once a year it never requires a service, Service for the T5 is inspect every 12000km and fluids every 50000 it uses the same fluid as the auto so is only $14 cheaper to maintain

cost more to repair;

90% of auto problems are pressure related and is only a minor part that is worn eg: gasket, o ring or loose bolts in worst case the clutches or bands will go but this will take a very long time

Once a manual starts having problems its usally bearings or syncros and that usually requires fitting another box or a complete rebuild but the problem with the rebuild is if metal from the worn parts has been floating around in the box for some time you can be sure it would of worn the meshing faces of the gears and it will still be noisy
If your lucky a clutch will be the problem as these wear faster than anything in an auto but they're cheap to replace just requires pulling the engine or box

have a much more limited life than a manual;

depends whats its being used for , in any hi power application you can bet your balls that it will be an auto doing the shifting Why? because auto transmissions will cope with more power for longer, you can set up a C4 to take 800hp for half the price of a manual for the same job
To get a manual for extreme duty you usually need to go for aftermarket box like a liberty or a richmond and these boxes start at $5000

cost more on fuel;

true but its bugger all

cut down the top speed;

Nope not true, regardless of auto or manual if top gear is the same ratio top speed will be the same

rob power from the engine;

yes it will rob a little hp but it will give you extra torque and thats what counts

make engines overheat in hot weather;

Yes if its poorly set up, but if its fitted with the correct size trans cooler thats located in a good place it will never overheat

and to top it all they are a danger to their users and everybody else around them because far too drivers have been led to believe that "Automatic gearbox" means that they will actually change gears properly under all possible situations, which is why you see so many accidents "due to overheated brakes" in automatic vehicles (shouldn't they say; "due to automatic transmission"?), particularly in mountain roads.


But your aware of this so it shouldnt be a problem for you and obviously if you were to fit an auto youd fit an RV kit ($60) that will set the auto more for its duty this will allow you to manually down shift it and use the auto as opposed to your brakes to slow up

After all said it only comes down to prefrence if you dont like autos you dont like them and thats that

i have a C4 in my drag car it has around 400hp na and then 250hp of nitrous its not heavy but its got alot of power and tyres that wont give on traction driveline components are under huge amounts of stress on launch and the auto takes it over and over again

At the moment we use a 78 F100 ambo to tow the race car around its loaded to the hilt with tools weighs about 3 ton and pulls the car and trailer around with ease we need to go over to large mountains to get to sydney race way and its never had a problem with its auto

[24vtranny]

i have a mk1 l.w.b. 4.1. auto and i love it.

Many people do, especially women and the elderly, but that doesn't answer any of the points I mentioned against them.

thats ok then cos i,m an 85 year old female

[Rolo]

cost more to buy; Compared to what?

What was the subject, again?

Tyre sizes?

a C4 is not a pricey as a t5

Are we comparing like with like and would that be why automatics cost on average $2000 more than manuals in brand new cars?

an LE97 4 speed from an ef el falc never requires a fluid change and appart from lubricating the shift linkage once a year it never requires a service,

And how many engines can they survive without major repairs?

I'm now well over 200 thousand kilometres with mine (bought second hand) and there isn't even any signs of clutch wear yet.

And should I mention that I only changed its 1.9 litres of ATF once since 1988 and the clutch, pressure plate and throw bearings are still the original ones.

Does the lubricant really need to be changed more often in manual transmissions?

in worst case the clutches or bands will go but this will take a very long time

How long do you claim a "long time" is?

The average automatic transmission won't make it past 100-150 thousand kilometres without MAJOR repairs or even total replacement, and that's provided you don't allow it to overheat.

Would you like me to find the automatic transmission temperature table that tells how long an automatic transmission will last at different temperatures?

Once a manual starts having problems its usally bearings or syncros and that usually requires fitting another box or a complete rebuild

I have never even heard of a manual gearbox having to be replaced and the only time I had the bearings and synchros replaced in a four speed single rail it cost me peanuts. (I removed and refitted the box myself)

I think you are pulling my leg.

but the problem with the rebuild is if metal from the worn parts has been floating around in the box for some time you can be sure it would of worn the meshing faces of the gears and it will still be noisy

Never heard of that either.

Metal particles float in oil that's not moved by a pump?

If your lucky a clutch will be the problem as these wear faster than anything in an auto

You lost me there;I thought you were supposed to be defending the use of automatics.

To get a manual for extreme duty you usually need to go for aftermarket box like a liberty or a richmond and these boxes start at $5000

Brand new?

Not that I have any use for "extreme duty" gearboxes of any type so we may be talking at cross purposes here but just out of curiosity, how much is an equivalent "extreme duty" automatic transmission, new?

My T5 cost me $700 in 1988 and I have just been quoted $200 for a 5 speed out of a Toyota bus (rated for more power than a T5, I'm told) although I'm yet to determine if it is cable or rod operated.

I need the cable type

cost more on fuel;

true but its bugger all

Give me some figures for "bugger all" so I can get back to you with some of my own.

cut down the top speed;

Nope not true, regardless of auto or manual if top gear is the same ratio top speed will be the same

Are you saying that car manufacturers lie when they tell us in their brochures that for the same engine a manual gearbox will invariably go faster?

Lying b*stards!

rob power from the engine;

yes it will rob a little hp

My 250 engine puts out 155 HP and I'm not prepared to sacrifice 10 to 20 HP just for the privilege of resting my left foot even if you consider it just a "little" HP".

make engines overheat in hot weather;

Yes if its poorly set up, but if its fitted with the correct size trans cooler thats located in a good place it will never overheat

Throughout my life I have owned four vehicles with automatic transmissions:

A Ford Transit swb single rear wheel van;

a 2.5t-3 ton Chevy 350 camper van;

a 3 ton Tioga class C and a 5 ton Pace Arrow class A motorhomes.

Every single one of them was "fitted with the correct transmission cooler located in a good place" in addition to the ones originally provided inside the main radiator and every single one of them overheated in hot days when driven hard and with the Ford Transit swb I finally threw away the automatic transmission, mounted a standard Borg Warner 3 speed manual and never had overheating problems again.

Last I heard of it its new owner never had overheating problems caused by the transmission either,

Do you know under what situations a manual transmission could possibly cause an engine to overheat?

With my current 3 ton camper (Manual transmission) I can run it at 70-80 km per hour, in the flat, with NO cooling fans and NO water pump running.

See my signature.

and to top it all they are a danger to their users and everybody else around them because far too drivers have been led to believe that "Automatic gearbox" means that they will actually change gears properly under all possible situations, which is why you see so many accidents "due to overheated brakes" in automatic vehicles (shouldn't they say; "due to automatic transmission"?), particularly in mountain roads.


But your aware of this so it shouldnt be a problem for you

It is a "problem for me" if these automatic transmission lovers who don't realize their automatic isn't really an automatic involve me in their accident.

Do you have any idea how many of them get straight into a 10-12 ton motorhome (fitted with an automatic transmission because they are best, of course) and then complain that the brakes overheat in the mountains?

[/quote]After all said it only comes down to prefrence if you dont like autos you dont like them and thats that [/quote]

No, it's much more than that; it's even a road safety issue that affects us all.

Far too many people who shouldn't be driving are doing so and puting other people's lives in danger, simply because automatic transmissions are available, and as soon as I become emperor I intend to do something about it.

[FredTransit]

Far too many people who shouldn't be driving are doing so and puting other people's lives in danger, simply because automatic transmissions are available, and as soon as I become emperor I intend to do something about it.

Today Tasmania, tomorrow the world?

[Rolo]

i have a mk1 l.w.b. 4.1. auto and i love it.

Many people do, especially women and the elderly, but that doesn't answer any of the points I mentioned against them.

thats ok then cos i,m an 85 year old female

So in your case the advantages of being able to push start a vehicle with manual transmission, (if the battery or starter motor are dead) are lost on you anyway so it's just as well I didn't mention that part.

[Rolo]

I found some more advantages to manual transmissions in http://www.wikipedia.com and I thought I should share.

[edit] Comparison with automatic transmissions
Manual transmissions are typically compared to automatic transmissions, as the two represent the majority of options available to the typical consumer. These comparisons are general guidelines and may not apply in certain circumstances. Additionally, the recent popularity of semi-manual and semi-automatic transmissions renders many of these points obsolete. It should be kept in mind that some of these points are true of "conventional" automatic transmissions which shift gears and are coupled to the engine with a torque converter but are not a true comparison or do not apply to other kinds of automatic transmissions, like the continuously-variable transmission.


[edit] Advantages
Manual transmissions typically offer better fuel economy than automatics.[1] Increased fuel economy with a properly operated manual transmission vehicle versus an equivalent automatic transmission vehicle can range from 5% to about 15% depending on driving conditions and style of driving -- extra urban or urban (highway or city). There are several reasons for this:
Mechanical efficiency. The manual transmission couples the engine to the transmission with a rigid clutch instead of a torque converter that introduces significant power losses. The automatic transmission also suffers parasitic losses by driving the high pressure hydraulic pumps required for its operation.
Driver control. Certain fuel-saving modes of operation simply do not occur in an automatic transmission vehicle, but are accessible to the manual transmission driver. For example, the manual-transmission vehicle can be accelerated gently, yet with a fully open throttle (accelerator pedal to the floor), by means of shifting early to a higher gear, keeping the engine RPM in a low power band. By contrast, in an automatic transmission, the throttle position serves as the indicator of how fast the driver wishes to accelerate. If the accelerator pedal is floored, the transmission will shift to a lower gear, resulting in high engine RPM and aggressive acceleration. The thermodynamically efficient combination of open throttle and low RPMs is unavailable to the automatic transmission driver. Fuel-efficient acceleration is important to achieving fuel economy in stop-and-go city driving.[2]
Fuel cut-off. The torque converter of the automatic transmission is designed for transmitting power from the engine to the wheels. Its ability to transmit power in the reverse direction is limited. During deceleration, if the torque converter's rotation drops beneath its stall speed, the momentum of the car can no longer turn the engine, requiring the engine to be idled. By contrast, a manual transmission, with the clutch engaged, can use the car's momentum to keep the engine turning, in principle, all the way down to zero RPM. This means that there are better opportunities, in a manual car, for the electronic control unit (ECU) to impose deceleration fuel cut-off (DFCO), a fuel-saving mode whereby the fuel injectors are turned off if the throttle is closed (foot off the accelerator pedal) and the engine is being driven by the momentum of the vehicle. Automatics further reduce opportunities for DFCO by shifting to a higher gear when the accelerator pedal is released, causing the RPM to drop.[citation needed]
Geartrain efficiency. Automatics may require power to be transmitted through multiple planetary gearsets before attaining the desired gear ratio. In comparison, manual transmissions usually transmit power through one or two gearsets at most.[citation needed]
Manual transmissions are still more efficient than belt-driven continuously-variable transmissions.[3][4]
It is generally easier to build a very strong manual transmission than a very strong automatic transmission. Manual transmissions usually have only one clutch, whereas automatics have many clutch packs.[citation needed]
Manual transmissions are generally significantly lighter than torque-converter automatics.[1]
Manual transmissions are typically cheaper to build than automatic transmissions.[citation needed]
Manual transmissions generally require less maintenance than automatic transmissions.[citation needed]
Manual transmissions normally do not require active cooling, because not much power is dissipated as heat through the transmission.[4]
The heat issue can be important in certain situations, like climbing long hills in hot weather, particularly if pulling a load. Unless the automatic's torque converter is locked up (which typically only happens in an overdrive gear that would not be engaged when going up a hill) the transmission can overheat.[5] A manual transmission's clutch only generates heat when it slips, which does not happen unless the driver is riding the clutch pedal.
A driver has more direct control over the state of the transmission with a manual than an automatic. This control is important to an experienced, knowledgeable driver who knows the correct procedure for executing a driving maneuver, and wants the machine to realise his or her intentions exactly and instantly. Manual transmissions are particularly advantageous for performance driving or driving on steep and winding roads. Note that this advantage applies equally to manual-automatic transmissions, such as tiptronic.
An example: the driver, anticipating a turn, can downshift to the appropriate gear while the steering is still straight, and stay in gear through the turn. This is the correct, safe way to execute a turn. An unanticipated change of gear during a sharp turn can cause skidding if the road is slippery.
Another example: when starting, the driver can control how much torque goes to the tires, which is useful for starting on slippery surfaces such as ice, snow or mud. This can be done with clutch finesse, or possibly by starting in second gear instead of first. The driver of an automatic can only put the car into drive, and play with the throttle. The torque converter can easily dump too much torque into the wheels, because when it slips, it acts as an extra low gear, passing through the engine power, reducing the rotations while multiplying torque. An automatic equipped with ESC, however, does not have this disadvantage.[citation needed] Some cars, such as the Saab NG900 Automatic transmission, have a special mode for low traction situations.
Yet another example: passing. When the driver is attempting to pass a slower moving vehicle by making use of a lane with opposite traffic, he or she can select a lower gear for more power at exactly the right moment when conditions are right to begin the maneuver. Automatics have a delayed reaction time, because the driver can only indicate his intent by pressing the throttle. The skilled manual transmission driver has an advantage of superior finesse and confidence in such situations.
Driving a manual requires more involvement from the driver, thereby discouraging some dangerous practices. The manual selection of gears requires the driver to monitor the road and traffic situation, anticipate events and plan a few steps ahead. If the driver's mind wanders from the driving task, the machine will soon end up in an incorrect gear, which will be obvious from excessive or insufficient engine RPM. Related points:
It's much more difficult for the driver to fidget in a manual transmission car, for instance by eating, drinking beverages, or talking on a cellular phone without a headset. During gear shifts, two hands are required. One stays on the wheel, and the other operates the gear lever. The hand on the wheel is absolutely required during turns, and tight turns are accompanied by gear changes. If the hand leaves the wheel, the steering will begin to straighten. In general, the more demanding the driving situation, the more difficult it is for the manual driver to do anything but operate the vehicle. The driver of an automatic transmission can engage in distracting activities in any situation, such as sharp turns through intersections or stop-and-go traffic.
The driver of a manual transmission car can develop an accurate intuition for how fast the car is traveling, from the sound of the motor and the gear selection. It's easier to observe the lower speed limits—like 30 km/h and 50 km/h or their U.S. and Imperial counterparts, 20 mph and 30 mph—without glancing at the instrumentation.
Cars with manual transmissions can often be started when the battery is dead by pushing the car into motion or allowing it to roll downhill, and then engaging the clutch in third or second gear. This is commonly known as a "push start" or in the USA as "popping the clutch", which in the UK describes the action of suddenly releasing the clutch pedal after putting it in gear.
Manual transmissions work regardless of the orientation angle of the car with respect to gravity. Automatic transmissions have a fluid reservoir (pan) at the bottom; if the car is tilted too much, the fluid pump can be starved, causing a failure in the hydraulics. This could matter in some extreme off roading circumstances.[citation needed]
It is sometimes possible to move a vehicle with a manual transmission just by putting it in gear and cranking the starter. This is useful in an emergency situation where the vehicle will not start, but must be immediately moved (from an intersection or railroad crossing, for example). It is also easier to put a car with a manual transmission into neutral, even when the transmission has suffered damage from an accident or malfunction. Many modern vehicles will not allow the starter to be run without the clutch fully depressed, negating this advantage.