1995 2.5 Diesel starting problems returned

[Sam P]

Hi Everyone
I contacted the forum back in May after I was having starting problems with our Ford Transit motorhome after having a timing belt change/fuel filter and water pump replaced in preparation for a trip to Italy. After a lot of second opinions from various garages I was told that the timing belt change was good and I had a replacement fuel filter fitted. The transit was managing to start after turning the engine but it never started as well as it used to before I had the work done and if it was left standing overnight it would be harder to start, sometimes taking over 14 seconds to fire once I turned the key. I had always been used to it starting as soon as I turned the key. I was convinced that there was air getting into the fuel system and found that when I bled the injectors the transit would start better for a while. After discussing this with a diesel mechanic he said it would take a bit of investigating to find where the problem was and might cost me quite a bit of money so he suggested that we take the transit to Italy as planned and if we had a problem starting the van we could just bleed the injectors. So we went to Italy in July and we didn't have any problems. The van started well everyday we were driving approximately 200 miles a day although we didn't drive much when we got to Italy and again 200 miles a day on the way back. We have driven small distances in the transit since we returned and I did notice it was getting harder to start it again maybe counting 6 seconds before it would fire. It's been sitting for a couple of months on our driveway and I have been keeping the battery charged but I tried to start it at the weekend and the engine is turning but not firing. The battery is charged and I bled the injectors but it hasn't made any difference the van just won't start. So my question is does this sound like an obvious problem to anyone out there? I've been thinking it was air getting into the system but when anyone has looked at the engine they say it all looks ok. I'm just wondering if anyone can suggest which things I should get checked over on this to solve the problem. I read somewhere that a faulty stop solenoid might cause this problem but I'm not sure if I'd be able to bleed the injectors if the stop solenoid was faulty? Can anyone tell me? I'm not a mechanic and have a very basic understanding of how this all works but if anyone can give any advice I'd be really grateful. Also just to say it was very hot in Italy and I wonder if the high temperature might have somehow helped the vehicle start, or is that just nonsense? and I have in the past been told to spray sure start to get it started but have since been advised not to do that as it can damage the compression? I'd like to solve what's wrong with the van without using sure start if possible. Thanks very much in advance
Sam

[gotgcoalman]

fact.
colder weather and the Di = poor starting.
If
the fuel and associated electrics aren't in good working order.
things to try.
leak off mod.
fit a 1 way valve on the fuel feed.
ford fuel filter not an aftermarket one.
get the battery "load" tested.Just because it's fully charged doesn't mean
it's delivering the CCA rating on the label.
check/clean all battery leads and earths.

Just a few sugestions to start with

[Altransit]

If it started happening after a timing belt change, it's possible that the belt is a notch out of time

Starter motor may be drawing too much current, so may need replacing

[Sam P]

Hi gotgcoalman and Altransit
Thanks for the advice. The timing has been checked twice since I had it changed and they say it's all fine and they eventually fitted a genuine Ford fuel filter on the van after I made a fuss so I'm trying to assume that the work I had done was OK. There is a braided fuel leak off pipe coming off of the last injector that seems to go back to the fuel filter. It has some self sealing tape wrapped round it, could this possibly let air in? Would it be easy for me to replace that piece of pipe with a new bit or would I have to drain the fuel?
Can you tell me what 'leak off mod' is please I'm a novice, is it something I could do or would I need to get a mechanic to do that for me?
One of the mechanics that looked at it said he couldn't find anything obviously wrong with it but he thought the starter motor sounded a bit tired so maybe I should go down the route of trying a new starter motor? I read on one of the other topics that a Di needs a strong starter motor like a Bosch 95a 2.3kw to get it turning should I look at getting one of those fitted? Are there any tests I can do on the starter motor I have to see if it's working properly?
I will get the battery checked over although I bought this from the garage that originally did the work when they told me it needed a stronger battery to get it going so it should be able to cope with it, if it's not faulty of course.
Thanks again both

[gotgcoalman]

Do the cheap stuff first.
Battery leads.connections (you can do this yourself)
when cranking are they getting warm
also
When was the oil last changed?

If the leak off pipe has "been taped up" change it.
It's a fiver for more than enough to change all of it from a motor factors.
If it is less than perfect it can cause starting issues.
hint
aquariun silicone air tubing is a 10 th of the price (heat and fuel resistant)

[wojciech]

Also just to say it was very hot in Italy and I wonder if the high temperature might have somehow helped the vehicle start, or is that just nonsense? and I have in the past been told to spray sure start to get it started but have since been advised not to do that as it can damage the compression? I'd like to solve what's wrong with the van without using sure start if possible. Thanks very much in advance
Sam

Let's get to the Diesel roots: Diesel during fuel injecion must to have above piston in cylinder very high temperature, minimum 450-500 C deg. It is because of very high compression. Without adequate compression (=temperature) Diesel will not work. During warm weather engines even with very poor compression start good, test of truth comes during cold weather.
So:
1.Engine Transit 2,5d has nominal compression 34 bars, absolutely minimum for possible start with start motor after cold night - it is 25 bars, very good compression with mileage about 250-350 k it is 28-30 bars. But I saw engines with compression 18 -20 bars and in summer time it worked. But only in summer...
2. During cold start injection pomp should increases dose of fuel injection and accelerate injection. Without correctly working injection pomp, cold start is very difficult or impossible. Also injectors with destroyed nozzles can foreclose cold start.
3. Airlocked pomp and whole high pressure fuel section (injectors, high pressure pipes) makes it impossible start.
4. During cold start diesel should be turned by startmotor not long time, but with high speed.

ad.1. - I think you should check compression
ad.2. - for the begining check static injection timing - it is quick, simple work. Whole pomp and injectors test "on table" is expensive, better solution is taking second using pomp and exchnge - I think.
ad.3. - It is very possible that your pomp during stand is airlocked; Transit 2,5d has small mechanical feed pomp, with two valves inside; during stand this two valves work against going back fuel to tank; if feed pomp is worn-out - anyway during work it is pomping fuel, but during stand valves are leaking, fuel slowly is going back to tank, in its place is coming air; exchanging of feed pomp is quick, simple and cheap - replacements are very cheap.
ad. 4. - if start motor works correctly with high speed - its ok, if very heavy and slowly (but battery is ok) take it out, clean all inside (carbonaceous dust, grease), check wires and solenoid. Battery should be with start current minimum 700A, better solution is two batteries 2 x 600A.

[Sam P]

Thanks wojciech, I will try all of the things you suggest and hopefully things will improve.
Thanks gotgcoalman I will get some pipe and replace the leak off pipe, will I have to drain the fuel off first? or can I replace the pipe without too much trouble? The van had an oil change just before we went to Italy, I had it serviced and MOT'd. I'll get the battery and connections double checked and see where we go from there.

[twin wheel camper]

Thanks wojciech, I will try all of the things you suggest and hopefully things will improve.
Thanks gotgcoalman I will get some pipe and replace the leak off pipe, will I have to drain the fuel off first? or can I replace the pipe without too much trouble? The van had an oil change just before we went to Italy, I had it serviced and MOT'd. I'll get the battery and connections double checked and see where we go from there.

Yes no need to drain the fuel obviously have the engine turned off and there will be no diesel spill apart from the little bit that is in the pipe.
Take great care removing the small pipe that you don’t break the little plastic outlet things on the injectors, I find if they are tight it’s best to very carefully cut a slice to split it then remove it.

[Sam P]

Thanks very much twin wheel camper I'll definitely give this a go. The pipe that needs replacing is the longer pipe that goes from the injector at the back to a T junction with another pipe near the fuel filter. I can't see how that section is attached do they just push on and pull off? They don't seem to be fixed on with any clips? Thanks Sam

[twin wheel camper]

Yes they are a push fit, normally they are perished and semi split,look at all the other shorter pipes between the other injectiors aswell its better to replace all at the same time because the chances are they all are the same age so will be by the best if the longer pipe is perished.

[Chug]

If the bad starting appeared after the cambelt change, then its possible the timing is slightly retarded even though you say its been rechecked, even if the timing pins all go in the three sprocket bolts can still give adjustment, retarded timing can also make the engine sluggish to turn over appearing like bad starter/battery etc.

[Sam P]

Hi All
Thanks for the help so far. I have now checked all the battery connections and the capacity of the battery and ordered some fuel leak off hose to replace the taped up hose. I also ordered a new fuel flame plug as after looking at my Haynes manual I found that my transit has one of these flame plugs and it does look very corroded so as it was only £9 I thought I'd renew that and see if it helps at all, they're apparently great for cold starts?
My question for now though if anyone can advise is:
On looking at the fuel leak off pipes on my injectors they all seem to have a double pronged part that the leak off pipes push onto and these connect each of the injectors with the hose but the first injector towards the front of the bonnet also has the two pronged part but only has one pipe coming off of it so the 2nd prong doesn't have anything on it, but the end of the prong seems to have a hole in it? so I'm wondering should this be sealed off? Could this be where the air is getting in? or is it normal to have a spare prong there? Hope someone can advise, Thanks Sam

[wojciech]

Hi All
Thanks for the help so far. I have now checked all the battery connections and the capacity of the battery and ordered some fuel leak off hose to replace the taped up hose. I also ordered a new fuel flame plug as after looking at my Haynes manual I found that my transit has one of these flame plugs and it does look very corroded so as it was only £9 I thought I'd renew that and see if it helps at all, they're apparently great for cold starts?
My question for now though if anyone can advise is:
On looking at the fuel leak off pipes on my injectors they all seem to have a double pronged part that the leak off pipes push onto and these connect each of the injectors with the hose but the first injector towards the front of the bonnet also has the two pronged part but only has one pipe coming off of it so the 2nd prong doesn't have anything on it, but the end of the prong seems to have a hole in it? so I'm wondering should this be sealed off? Could this be where the air is getting in? or is it normal to have a spare prong there? Hope someone can advise, Thanks Sam

First prong without pipe (stub pipe) on first injector should be sealed off, rest pipes are connected injector to injector, from last prong on last injector pipe leads to T-connector localized on return fuel pipe between engine and bulkhead.

Flame start system works usually below -5 C deg. And only after long stop (cold night). If engine is warm, temperature in engine compartment is also high and system will not work even during strong freezing cold. Flame start controller has special plug for testing system work - try test it, is it ok. Usually controller doesn't work after 3-4 years already.

[twin wheel camper]

Hi All
Thanks for the help so far. I have now checked all the battery connections and the capacity of the battery and ordered some fuel leak off hose to replace the taped up hose. I also ordered a new fuel flame plug as after looking at my Haynes manual I found that my transit has one of these flame plugs and it does look very corroded so as it was only £9 I thought I'd renew that and see if it helps at all, they're apparently great for cold starts?
My question for now though if anyone can advise is:
On looking at the fuel leak off pipes on my injectors they all seem to have a double pronged part that the leak off pipes push onto and these connect each of the injectors with the hose but the first injector towards the front of the bonnet also has the two pronged part but only has one pipe coming off of it so the 2nd prong doesn't have anything on it, but the end of the prong seems to have a hole in it? so I'm wondering should this be sealed off? Could this be where the air is getting in? or is it normal to have a spare prong there? Hope someone can advise, Thanks Sam

Yes there should be a little plastic plug on the last injector or first depending how the leak off pipe is fitted,
It will usually come in set with the leak pipe failing that you could cut a short bit of leak off pipe and put a suitable plug into it to seal it as a temporary measure till you get the little plug for it and that plug missing will be causing the fuel to run back to the tank and make starting a pig
My money is on your starting problem will be no more when you get this new pipe fitted

[Sam P]

IMG_20181113_152136872.jpg

Hi twin wheel camper and wojciek
Thank you both for your advice. I've now got the replacement fuel leak off pipe and it did come with an end piece so I've put that on the end of the prong on the first injector, on closer inspection it did actually have an end piece on it but it looked like it was part of the injector especially as it had a dimple in the end that looked like a hole. ( I told you I was a novice!) it was very perished though so needed changing I think. I'm going to change the rest of the pipe at the weekend but I had a closer look at the T piece where the leak off pipe meets the pipe from the fuel filter and it is fixed on with a crimped metal ring. I'm worried I might damage the pipes from the fuel filter getting the clamp off so I was thinking it might be better to replace the t piece as well and fit that into the pipes that run from the fuel filter. So my questions today are:
1. Would replacing the t piece be the easiest option? or should I just try and prise the clamp open?
2. can I cut the pipes from the fuel filter and re fit them to the new t piece or should I try and keep them the original length?
3. If I were to accidentally damage the pipe that goes from the fuel filter to the tank is it easy to replace these, my vehicle is a 1995 transit 2.5 di and some parts are tricky to find.
4. I worry about losing fuel from the fuel filter when doing this as part of me feels the starting problem is connected to this fuel filter that was replaced in the summer. Can you tell me if I need to do anything to replace fuel into the system after I've changed the pipes? Would I have to prime the system again?
Thanks very much
Sam