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Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby Chug » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:24 pm

Yes I was referring to the 2.5di turbo engine, I have just bought a 100ps turbo engine(from an LDV I was told) so I have a keen interest in this :D it has blue spot on the lucas IP cover, so I'm assuming blue spot injectors are fitted?

also I just searched for Tim's stanadyne injector list
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=131802

it lists three 100ps engines with blue spot injectors but the 28935 and 30689 ones are superceded by the 33408 ones.

But it doesn't list the 115ps engine, so are the injectors the same as the 100ps ones and its just an intercooler that makes the extra ooomph?

And some 100ps engines have 33710 brown spot injectors, can anyone explain what is the difference between the blue and brown spot 100ps injectors? opening pressure, spray pattern, or what?
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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby wojciech » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:28 pm

I know two more lists for Stanadyne injectors, generally simillar - but it's not exactly...
For example injector 32148 in first list fit engine 100 HP and 115 HP, in second list fit only engine 100 HP. And others.

First list is more believable - I think...
Position 32 - injectors body
Position 33/34 - injectors nozzle


Image


---------------------------------------------------------------

Nr. Stanadyne Nr. Ford Color Engine Replacement

26632 894F-9K546-ABB Orange 2.5L 4 Cyl. HSDI
26964 894F-9K546-ACA White 2.5L 4cyl. HSDI (Blue-70PS,Green-80PS)
28682 924F9K546-CA Green 2.5L NA 70 PS
28935 924F-9E527-AB Blue2.5L TC 100 PS 33408
29487 934F-9E527-AA Pink 2.5L TC 85 PS 33407
30675 954F-9E527-AB Green 2.5L NA 70 PS (MY 95) 33405
30678 954F-9K546-BB Red2.5L NA 75 PS (MY 95) 33406
30687 954F-9K546-CB Pink 2.5L TC 85 PS (MY 95) 33407
30689 954F-9K546-DB Blue 2.5L TC 100 PS (MY 95) 33408
32142 974F-9K546-CA 2.5L NA 70 PS (MY 97 1/2) 33704
32144 974F-9K546-DA 2.5L NA 76 PS (MY 97 1/2) 33706
32148 974F-9K546-FA 2.5L TC 100 PS (MY 97 1/2) 33710
33198 974F-9K546-AC 2.5L TCI/TC 85PS 33708
33405 954F-9K546-AC Green 2.5L NA 70 PS (MY 95) 30675
33406 954F-9K546-BC Red 2.5L NA 75 PS (MY 95) 30678
33407 954F-9K546-CC Pink 2.5L TC 85 PS (MY 95) 30687,29487
33408 954F-9K546-DC Blue 2.5L TC 100 PS (MY 95)30689,28935
33704 974F-9K546-CB Green 2.5L NA 70 PS (MY 98 ) 32142
33706 974F-9K546-DB Red 2.5L NA 76 PS (MY 98 ) 32144
33708 974F-9K546-AD Orange 2.5L TC/TCI 85 PS (MY 97/98 ) 33198
33710 974F-9K546-FB Brown 2.5L TC 100 PS (MY 98 ) 32148
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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby Chug » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:48 pm

Interesting that you found a list with 115ps listed wojciech, here is another but it also doesn't list the 115ps
http://www.starsdiesel.com/news_72.htm

and as you mentioned the same brown spot injector is listed for 100ps and 115ps, so maybe it is just down to the intercooler making the extra 15ps power?

But then brown and blue spots are also both listed for the 100ps engine?

And after a little research I have found the answer to my question about the difference between blue spot and brown spot injectors ........
the injectors both have the same opening pressure 4000psi (280 bar)
and both have the same lift 3/4±1/16 .0135 (0.34mm)
and both have the same number of spray orifices (5)

The only difference is in the spray orifice hole size.....
blue spot .0088 (0.225mm),
brown spot .0082 (0.208mm)

And just in case anyone is interested the yellow spot 130ps marine injectors
have same opening pressure but different lift 7/8±1/16 .0156 (0.40mm)
and spray orifice size .0120 (0.26mm)
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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby wojciech » Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:42 pm

Chuggy wrote:Interesting that you found a list with 115ps listed wojciech, here is another but it also doesn't list the 115ps


Because we know for sure that egines 115 HP were produced - this first list is believable.
But on the other hand, engine Marine is only 85 HP... (position nr. 6 on this list)

I have not idea, why on rest lists engine 115 HP does not exist. :?: :roll:

It's a funny thing - for CAV Lucas and early Bosch system (Mk3) you could buy as Fords replacement part (is given finis) injectors body and nozzles. Good old times...
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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby Chug » Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:48 pm

yes it's hard to find info on the 115ps engine isn't it,

and just to confuse matters the cross reference from Tim's list to the marine injector, no 6 on your list... finis 7229987 is listed at 130ps :lol:
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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby Jim Archer » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:07 pm

The other difference with the 'Brown spot' 33710 is they are the later RSM(?) type that deliver a small initial injection as the pump pressure begins to come up, then full delivery there after - giving a simple mechanical Pilot Injection. Part of the reason why TD motors are noticably quieter than NA versions.

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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby Chug » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:12 pm

Have you got any more info on that 33710 pilot injection please Jim?
I cannot find anything, the opening pressure is listed as the same as the other transit ones and the only picture I've found just shows the same spring system in the injector, so I cannot figure out how it can have pilot injection, surely once pressure is enough to overcome the injector spring pressure it just opens?
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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby Jim Archer » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:18 am

Bear in mind it was a few years ago now that I was involved with RSM injectors, but basically, the pintle has a stepped diameter at the tip, the shoulder of which sits within what effectively is a needle jet within the nozzle.

As the break-off pressure is reached, and the pintle starts to lift, the tip within the orifice restricts the initial flow of fuel until the tip lifts clear of the 'restrictor'. It's a bit more complicated than that, as the little well of fuel between the shoulder and the nozzle gives a wee burst of fuel, shoulder lifts out of the orifice, and 'full' flow then occurs.

It helped make the injection event quieter in 2 ways; the initial 'ping' is greatly reduced, plus with the 'pilot injection' less fuel is required as that which is delivered is burned quicker due to the increased pressure and heat in the chamber.

Pumps; the lift cams had a different ramp profile, and usually a bigger HP piston/delivery capacity but ran a lower demand/delivery i.e. the pump was effectively tuned down for the same fuel delivery..

Lucas EPIC and the Bosch 'electronic' pumps fitted to VWs etc had the benefit of ECU governed timing and lift which made them generally relatively quieter than a mechanical pump.

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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby Chug » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:13 am

Whilst looking for info about these injectors on the stanadyne site recently I emailed them and asked the difference between 33408 (blue spot) and 33710 (brown spot) injectors, here is the reply, confirming its just the spray orifice hole size.................

*****************************************************************************************************
--------------- Original Message ---------------
From: Chug [wordpress@stanadyne.com]
To: customerexp@stanadyne.com
Subject: Stanadyne Contact Form Submission

From: Chug
Subject: Stanadyne Contact Form Submission

Hello Stanadyne,
can you tell me what is the difference between pencil injectors no 33408 and no 33710? as both seem to be listed for the 100ps engine.
Also are these one stage or two stage pilot injection injectors? maybe that is the difference?

many thanks in advance
Chug

Hello Chug,
The difference with these injectors is the spray orifice size. The 33408 size is .0088 (0.225 mm) and the 33710 injector has size of .0082 (0.208mm) . This is the only difference.

Sincerely,
Ariel Rosario
Global Technical Support Specialist

****************************************************************************

I then replied asking whether they are single stage, or pilot injection, here is the reply, confirming single stage injection................


--------------- Original Message ---------------
To: customerexp@stanadyne.com
Subject: RE: Stanadyne Contact Form Submission [ ref:_00Do0bBvo._5001NhnzpP:ref ]

Thank you for your reply Ariel Rosario,

Are they just single stage injection, or do they have a pilot injection phase?

regards
Chug

Hello Chug,
They are single stage injection.

Sincerely,
Ariel Rosario
Global Technical Support Specialist
Stanadyne LLC
92 Deerfield Road
Windsor, CT 06095
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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby Chug » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:10 pm

After getting on to Stanadyne who are really helpful, I think I've got to the bottom of this pilot injection now, and as you say Jim it was a few years ago,

the RSM injector is actually Rate Shaping Nozzle (RSN) and it was only the green and red spot injectors fitted to the 70 and 76ps transits from June 1997 that had this feature, it wasn't a pilot injection as such more of a slower initial injection which then increases to full flow, Stanadyne are kind enough to provide a web link which describes it thus:-

Beginning of injection RSN flow rate
increases at a lower rate due to the RSN
throttling feature

As valve lift continues into the final stage
of rate shaping, the RSN design’s flow
increases to the same rate as the
conventional design

This ability to restrict and tailor the fuel
flow during the early period of the injection
sequence is used to produce the desired
noise reductions and lowering of NOX
levels needed to m
eet the needs of our
OEM customers

Source: scroll to page 12
http://www.stanadyne.com/dealerportal/s ... 0-%204.pdf
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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby MinorMatt » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:47 pm

Going back to the OP...

The engine is not mappable.

Late 100PS and 115PS. injectors are the same (33710).

The only way you will get more power is marine 130PS injectors (no longer available - so good luck) a more efficient intercooler/charge cooler, and a custom made mechanical/bosch injection pump. It will smoke and use a load more fuel to get the power
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Re: Tuning a 2,5 l diesel turbo, year 2000, 115 hp.

Postby wojciech » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:42 pm

Where there's a will there's a way. :lol:


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